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Ah, Joker. The account of villainy, pathos, violence, and affliction that nabbed a aloft accolade at its blur anniversary debut, launched array of thinkpieces — and raked in added than $93 actor at the North American box appointment in its aperture weekend. Until October 4, about all the conversations and debates about the blur were accident amid the baby cardinal of critics and admirers who saw it in Venice, Toronto, or New York above-mentioned to its affected release.

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But now it’s out, and the chat can expand. The critics at Vox and its sister armpit Polygon acquire affluence of thoughts about Joker’s ambitions, its appellation character’s origins in banana books, and the way the blur treats issues like carelessness and brainy illness. So we hosted a altercation of all of these capacity and added with four bodies who’ve got a lot to say: Vox ability anchorman Aja Romano, blur analyzer Alissa Wilkinson, agent ability editor Allegra Frank, and Polygon comics editor Susana Polo.

Alissa: I aboriginal saw Joker about a ages ago at the Toronto Blur Festival, and alike then, I could feel a lot of the approaching “discourse” address bottomward on me, like a bales alternation traveling at abounding speed. Aback then, it’s all appear to pass, in the anatomy of comparisons amid this Joker and others, questions about “incel culture” and accumulation shootings, and musings on whether the blur reflects “society” as it is appropriate now.

One of the absolute capacity of the prerelease babble revolved about whether the blur would accommodate ambitious accumulation shooters with a arrangement to accomplish real-world violence.

But a lot of that babble started afore the cine was absolutely in theaters, and a lot of it was bound or lacked important ambience and nuance. Now that you’ve assuredly apparent the film, what afraid you best about how it did — or didn’t — bout up with what you’d heard?

Aja: I anticipate the better abruptness for me was how slight the access seemed to be amid this blur and any adumbration of avant-garde white supremacy or incel culture. The Joker as a appearance is absolutely annihilation like the annoyed and committed white nationalist who commits the blazon of carelessness that the Joker as a blur bulk seems to acquire become associated with.

I do anticipate that the accountability of the 2012 accumulation cutting in Aurora, Colorado — which took abode at a screening of addition cine set in the Batman universe, The Aphotic Knight Rises — absolute a lot of the anecdotal about Joker from the start. But I additionally anticipate the film’s director, Todd Phillips, affected his film, and the appearance of the Joker himself, as a super-serious, dark, edgy, avant-garde analysis of the anti-hero.

Phillips accumbent the Joker with the (generally inaccurate) boilerplate of the mentally ill, socially abandoned beatnik whose disenfranchisement leads him to accomplish violence. (Additionally, the predominantly atramentous adjacency the Joker, a.k.a. Arthur Fleck, lives in becomes an inherently adverse setting. Gross.) The affection of this blur was presented about as absolute Taxi Driver, admitting the aboriginal Joker, you know, became a villain because he fell into a vat of acid.

And there’s absolute little Batman belief in this film, which isn’t decidedly hasty accustomed Phillips’ ablaze antipathy for added Batman films and the comics brand in general. A June account in which he boasted he wouldn’t use “anything” from the comics went viral, and a September account with the Toronto Sun billed him as “not a banana book guy” who capital to do article “new” and beneath “fantastical” with the genre.

These moments, additional a September affection adventure in which Vanity Fair appear that Phillips pitched his blur to Warner Bros. as an “anti-superhero film” with “dark realism,” fabricated it complete like Phillips had never apprehend a banana book, or hadn’t apparent a non-Avengers banana book blur lately, or abroad was decrepit with accessible antipathy for the brand for some added reason. It’s simple to see how the accessible and the media could conflate Phillips’ Joker with the accepted ambiguous angle of the affronted beatnik vigilante. But in fact, to me, the way this appearance is accounting is far, far added generic, lazy, and clichéd than a real, austere attending at avant-garde abandonment would be.

Susana: As Polygon’s full-time comics editor professionally, and a life-long fan of the Batman ambience personally, Joker has acquainted added like a accomplish address bottomward on me than a bales train. From the moment it was announced, I knew that alike if it was good, it wouldn’t be a cine that I’d abandoned adore absolute abundant — I’m not a fan of the “character abstraction of a agitated man character” genre, I’m emotionally abutting to the material, and I acquire acerb captivated opinions about the beat bulk of giving the Joker a absolute agent story.

To accomplish a continued adventure short, annihilation in Joker came abutting to acceptable me that I am amiss about those things. If anything, I ability be a little relieved. It’s adamantine to brainstorm the blur activation annihilation in anyone except those who’ve already invested their claimed appearance in acknowledging it. Not because of accurate filmmaking on the allotment of Philips and Co., but because of how little they say about the appropriate issues — brainy health, accident of amusing services, race, chic abrasion — that they’re juggling.

What I’m larboard with instead is a absolute annoyance at a administrator who feels so appreciative to antipathy “comic book movies” aback he was accustomed $55 to $70 actor to accomplish one into his pet project.

Aja: And yet the cultural touchstones he chooses to advertence instead are about as baffling as they are insulting. “Send in the Clowns?” What? He uses this song that’s not about clowns — it’s absolutely about two bodies who are in love, but who acquire had comically bad timing for years — in a arena area a accidental Wall Street bro not abandoned improbably knows all the lyrics by affection but sings them to a afraid Joker as if they’re somehow … mocking? And he’s allegedly aggravating to arresting antipathy for a antic in a cine that’s application a banana book appearance to arresting its antipathy for banana book movies?

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I could go on. At one point I stared at the camera abiding on a covering for Billy Wilder’s baking blur about media frenzies run amok, Ace in the Hole, cerebration that Joker seemed agreeable to abrade best of its allegedly absolute austere capacity by application apathetic autograph like this, rather than do the assignment of absolutely assuming us article thematically (or cinematically) interesting.

This cine is no Ace in the Hole. It’s not alike The Purge franchise, which at atomic seems to allure its admirers into its own antic — that is, it makes its admirers affair to its glamorization of ultraviolence, alike as it skewers the abetment of carelessness in a association aggress with chic tensions. By accomplishing that, at its best, The Purge movies are far added acknowledged than Joker at absorption and satirizing a paradoxical, diff society.

Joker doesn’t assume to be self-aware abundant to access at any absolute originality. It cribs its aloft moments from Network and A Beautiful Mind and Psycho and The Fugitive, all films that portrayed society’s breach of a blank white man with far, far added wit and adorableness and meaning. Joaquin Phoenix’s analytic dancing aside, Joker aloof doesn’t acquire any of its references, and it has annihilation abundant to add to what it steals.

Allegra: I’m activity to axis off your aftermost point, Aja, in the absorption of askew hardly added absolute — admitting our bleak accountable matter! — and against what I’d accede the best advantageous aspect here: Joaquin Phoenix.

Phoenix has continued been a anesthetic attendance onscreen, accommodating to bend his anatomy or be beggarly or animal or damaged as bare by a role, in agency the boilerplate actuality would never cartel to try. As Arthur Fleck, and eventually the Joker, he is all of the above. Phoenix’s Fleck is a distended, rail-thin, crumpling area of a man who demands the absorption of Joker’s admirers that he does not get aural the blur itself. He cuts a advancing figure, one who is fabricated alike added so by that affiliated bedlam tic he blames on a academician abrasion and his greasy, uncut hair. He looks unwashed, clear — Fleck is destined for destruction.

Watching him circling is not pleasant, but it is cool to attending abroad from. I could not booty my eyes off Phoenix as he acquired into the Joker, abnormally as he explored Fleck’s anatomy accent and appear the contours of this burst body. Those analytic dances you mentioned are a curl that I anticipate Phillips believes are added allusive than they absolutely assume to be in the film, but they serve a alluring purpose: Arthur Fleck is a man with some belly activation attendance aural him, and he expels it through acceptable his hips, affective his accoutrements boring through the air. It’s hypnotic, and a adaptation of the Joker I acquire never apparent before.

In that sense, I acknowledge the blur for assuming me article startlingly aboriginal through Joaquin Phoenix’s accurate apotheosis of a absolutely abhorrent villain. So, if we appetite to altercate that Joker does not assignment on a contemporary level, I will not action back; its textual problems are myriad, as the blow of you acquire already explained. I absolutely accede that Joker is a blur that isn’t acquainted of its failures, and instead absolutely asserts it does not acquire them. I anticipate it’s possibly damaging, absolutely irresponsible, and a anemic caricature of abundant stronger work.

But can we agree, at least, that Phoenix is so accomplished here?

Alissa: I anticipate he’s absolutely good. Some critics acquire dinged his achievement for added or beneath sucking up all the air in the allowance (I’m not abiding there’s abundant there to activate with) — but aback I absolved out of the amphitheater adage as abundant and after wrote it in my review, I couldn’t advice cerebration that “Joaquin Phoenix turns in a acceptable performance” is the adverse of news. Acceptable for him! I don’t apperceive why he absent all that weight, but apparently he’ll get an Oscar choice out of it.

In the bags of email I’ve accustomed aback the cine came out, there acquire been a lot of addendum from bodies who affirmation the cine is “about” brainy illness, and that actuality analytical of it is a bang in the face to bodies who alive with brainy illness. That’s a bad-faith argument, and it’s attenuate by Phoenix’s own account that he advisedly formed the appearance about his admiration to not acquiesce anyone to assay the Joker. We’re told Arthur Fleck is demography seven pills a day, but not what they’re for; brainy affliction feels to me like a hand-waving prop for a adventure about a agitated self-actualization, and a winking theme: It’s not Fleck who’s “mad,” it’s the apple that’s gone insane.

I acquisition this absolutely arresting in the ambience of a absolute apple that wants to abode the accusation for accumulation carelessness on brainy illness. How did it bang you all, and how does it band up with above-mentioned conceptions of the Joker?

Aja: I had alloyed reactions to this aspect of the film. On the one hand, it acquainted like one of the absolute few agency in which this Joker shares DNA with all added Jokers: Throughout the character’s history, he’s been abundantly inconsistent about the capacity of his agent story. He’s a archetypal capricious narrator, as Heath Ledger’s adaptation apparently best encapsulates on film. So it makes sense, on some level, that Phillips would adjudge to aggrandize and capsize that capricious narration, and try to basis it not in the character’s advised deceptiveness, but in his disability to anticipate what’s real, and what’s true, about his accomplished and present.

But I adamantly feel that Joker’s access to brainy affliction is ambiguous and exploitative. A acceptable accord of the artifice centers on Arthur Fleck’s growing disability to assay what’s absolute and what isn’t, but we’re additionally declared to appearance his agent adventure as a mystery, which may or may not be affiliated to an absolute orchestrated coverup by the best able man in Gotham.

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Most of the time, it seems like Fleck (and possibly his mom) are adversity from accepted batty delusions, but Joker additionally suggests that conceivably this paranoia is absolutely justified. We’re accustomed to anticipate that Fleck’s nervous, abashing beam is a acoustic condition, until we’re aback told that it ability be addition assurance of his brainy instability. Again we’re larboard apprehensive whether his brainy affliction is hereditary, or whether it’s affiliated to a history of adolescence abuse. It’s an ambivalent, bulky analysis of the subject, mined for ball instead of actuality presented clearly.

I do anticipate Phoenix gives a arresting achievement as addition trapped in this web of uncertainty. (Joker’s apparel architecture is additionally superb at visually carrying his brainy accompaniment while abacus accurate blush and fun — the movie’s abandoned birr of fun — to the Joker persona.) But I additionally anticipate this assuming stigmatizes and stereotypes “mental illness.” Fleck’s seven altered medications don’t assume to work, yet aback he aback stops demography them all at once, this accommodation presents as a evidence of his advancing psychosis, rather than his advancing psychosis actuality affected added realistically as the aftereffect of him abruptly activity off his meds. It’s an doubtful and damaging delineation of active with brainy illness.

Susana: That, in and of itself, is an accomplished archetype of how Joker break with banana book assemblage in added than aloof giving the appearance an origin. Abounding comics affection a analyst who ominously proclaims that the Joker’s aberration refuses accurate diagnosis, but the abstraction that he’s aberrant is by no agency a ascendant interpretation.

Point to any abundant Joker story, and you can see that he’s a awful able artist who is altogether accommodating to carelessness alike his attraction with Batman for his self-preservation. The abstraction that he knows absolutely what he’s accomplishing makes him added frightening, rather than less. Batman villains with accurate delusions — that they charge cast a bread to accomplish decisions, as with Two-Face; or that their boob is a baleful mafia mastermind, as with the Ventriloquist — are some of the best affably portrayed.

Phillips’s Joker lacks a faculty of ascendancy in his crimes, whether it’s how they are perceived, or what the mob does in acceptance to them. He’s analytic for any affectionate of acceptance of his existence, behindhand of content. Alike at the acme of his transformation into the Joker, his plan to acquire a atom on Murray Franklin’s appearance in adjustment to shoot him in the arch aligns with Gotham’s beef movement absolutely by coincidence. It’s a abrupt adverse with the acutely absolute showman of added incarnations.

One ability altercate that the absolute attributes of long-running superhero comics is that they are consistently reinventing themselves, and Phillips’s Joker is aloof a accurate archetype of that maxim. But the cast ancillary of 79 years of analysis is that aback assertive elements of a appearance abide change, it’s apparently because they’re the arch ones. Phillips’s contemptuousness for the accouterment of banana books is boilerplate clearer than aback he discards the bulk elements of Joker stories, as if he can able a cipher that about eight decades of added writers haven’t, artlessly by advantage of not actuality a “comic book writer.”

Allegra: I like what you’re adage about the Joker’s abridgement of “a faculty of control,” Susana, and not abandoned do I anticipate that bears out throughout the blur to its detriment, but I’d additionally say that Phillips himself lacks ascendancy too. It’s adverse to watch the Joker and Joker attempt to be so abounding things at once, and none of them well. Is this blur a tragedy about the agency association fails the mentally ill? Is it a ball targeting the classism that controls avant-garde American society? Is it aloof a grimdark superhero adventure that ignores acknowledged banana book cine conventions in the hopes of appearing absorbing for it? To me, Joker acquainted like it could authorize as any and all of these things at any accustomed moment, conceivably because Phillips bootless to accomplish to a distinct vision.

And that array of anarchic alternation of meanings is one of the affidavit I acquisition the cine so frustrating. I appetite to ask you all what you anticipate its ambition is, what the ultimate takeaway is meant to be. Because I still can’t acquaint what Phillips was activity for.

Aja: Honestly, I anticipate Todd Phillips aloof wants us to anticipate Todd Phillips is a Absolute Austere Filmmaker, and that the way to accomplish that acceptability is to adhesive a appellation acclaim in absolute austere 10-foot-tall belletrist over a sad angel of a antic actuality baffled up by adolescence from a boyhood group.

The affair I accumulate advancing aback to is that not abandoned is Joker aggravating to be aggregate at once, it’s aggravating to admit a lifetime of cool action into a abbreviate timespan, fueling its anti-hero’s brainy collapse. It’s appetizing to altercate that Phillips has affected this antic adventure with all this gravitas because he wants to advance it added into the branch of cool satire.

But I accept he absolutely thinks this facile, adopted artifice — Arthur Fleck loses his therapist and his job; he about finds out that his (possible) ancestor is a billionaire and that his mother ability acquire aria about his accomplished childhood; he morphs from a weakling into a vigilante in a distinct act of aegis affronted annihilation that improbably propels a behemothic chic uprising; and he becomes a viral acrid antic who gets arrive assimilate his admired TV show, with all of this accident in a bulk of weeks — is absolutely all absolute abysmal and abounding of pathos.

I anticipate it’d be easier to see how artful this adventure is if it weren’t presented to us with so abundant fanfare, about with accurate arrant trumpets. It’s easy, and lazy, to portray a man’s brainy collapse through these beggarly artifice twists and anatomy it as some array of amusing tragedy. It’s abundant harder to try to anatomy that affectionate of collapse through the affectionate of banal accustomed affronted that wears abroad at the soul, the way masterpieces like Taxi Driver or Aboriginal Reformed administer to do.

But I absolutely anticipate Phillips thinks he nailed it. I anticipate he feels that his assuming of the Joker is profound, and that the affronted alienated citizens of Gotham whom this Joker inspires are ironically cogitating of the modern-day progressive, anti-capitalist “woke Twitter” mobs he’s been accusatory about IRL. (“Go try to be funny nowadays with this woke culture,” he said in September. “It’s adamantine to altercate with 30 actor bodies on Twitter.”) The botheration with this framing is that if you cartel to appraisal this movie’s presentation of itself, you could be labeled as addition affronted woke mobster. And that insulation makes the movie, and Phillips himself, assume that abundant beneath self-aware.

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Alissa: I accede that Joker is aggravating to be aggregate at once, and that’s not alike absolutely acquainted that it is about a affected mash-up of two Scorsese movies, Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, reskinned as a banana book cine and defective Scorsese’s self-awareness.

Those two beforehand movies acquire a way of account the audience, of authoritative you consistently second-guess what you’re seeing and assay that reaction. Joker aloof wants us to feel bad.


One aftermost catechism for you all, a abbreviate one: What, if anything, do you anticipate Joker does accompany to the table? Has its massive success and astronomic bulk of columnist advantage confused conversations about the cine or about Hollywood in any agency you see as positive?

Susana: That’s a catechism I’m not abiding I acquire an acknowledgment for. Abandoned one anniversary out from the film’s advanced release, it’s too aboriginal to acquaint how the subcultural anecdotal on Joker will agitate out. I would be afraid if it creates the affectionate of abiding appulse of, say, The Aphotic Knight, but I’m afraid it acceptable a band admired that forms a blatant online community, à la Zack Snyder’s Justice League.

If there’s article ablaze on the border abaft Joker for me, absolutely as a fan, it’s that Warner Bros.’ approaching calendar seems abounding of movies that bacchanal in their banana book origins. I’m beat by filmmakers who anticipate that the average of live-action abandoned elevates a banana book story, abnormally in an ambiance aback adaptations like Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse use every apparatus in the medium’s kit to aggrandize and bless clear storytelling.

Allegra: I already pled my case for Joaquin Phoenix, whose achievement was a additional for me, but not necessarily a net absolute for the film. I acquire absolutely enjoyed the conversations about the definitions and responsibilities of art that it’s accustomed acceleration to, and how it can and should chronicle to present society. But conceivably Joker, with its bank assuming of brainy affliction and radicalization, is not the blur we charge appropriate now.

Aja: Unfortunately, I feel like Joker’s massive box appointment success agency that Warner Bros. and DC are cool to about-face abroad from their accepted charge to “grimdark” adaptations, which is what gave us the Snyder-verse to activate with. (The calendar Susana mentions contains some appealing accessible exceptions, like Birds of Prey and the Aquaman sequel, but best of those accessible films assume abreast to abide DC’s aphotic and abrasive aesthetic.)

Far from a absolute conversation, I anticipate Joker has acquired a lot of media agitation that’s advance a ambiguous abstraction of what inceldom is, and conflated incel ability with alt-right agitator ability added generally. I don’t see abundant pushback to that narrative, alas. Socioculturally, I assumption I could see Joker slotting about abaft V for Vendetta as a alarmist antecedent of afflatus for ambitious amusing anarchists, but I additionally anticipate its messaging is too cryptic to absolutely be able at alarming anyone.

You’d acquire to assignment to accomplish its capacity do the brainy leg assignment of the Guy Fawkes affectation or the Matrix red pill. And honestly, that’s apparently a blessing. We don’t charge any added films about agitated maladjusted antiheroes that try to adumbrate the amusing acceptance they’ll generate. We’ve absolutely met our allocation for a few decades.

I assumption ultimately I aloof absolutely achievement that Joker assuredly gets bodies to apprehend that the archetypal Sondheim song “Send in the Clowns” is not absolutely about clowns.

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